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Thread: The state of the game

  1. #16
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    I've watched about 4 games in the last month and I can't say I've missed it which is a real pity. I'm genuinely tempted to pretty much not watch next year.
    It's just a shame the NFL season is so short.
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    FFC General Manager Devo's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    It's not he umpires fault at all, they actually do an outstanding job of trying to umpire to the cluster**** of interpretations they're given. I mean during the Essendon game they were explaining that apparently the interpretation in a ruck contest is that a stiff arm is an illegal move and should be a free kick against... this is according to the umpiring directives (I have no idea if it's actually a rule but it seems so inherently against the spirit of the game that I'd be shocked if it was).
    I saw this, it was McKernan v Lobbe. Not sure on what planet that was a free kick. I thought that stiff-arm to keep Lobbe away from the ball was totally legit. Baffling stuff.
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    Re: The state of the game

    I'd say at least one, probably closer to three or more, games a week is affected result-wise by umpiring.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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    FFC General Manager twarby's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    i don't really have a problem with how the game gets played, a coaches aim is to win by scoring more than the opposition, I don't have a problem with how its done, umpiring needs to be more consistent though.

    I do think we've got too many teams though, a competition with 12 teams who play everyone twice would be my ideal afl comp, will never happen though.

  5. #20
    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by twarby View Post
    i don't really have a problem with how the game gets played, a coaches aim is to win by scoring more than the opposition, I don't have a problem with how its done, umpiring needs to be more consistent though.

    I do think we've got too many teams though, a competition with 12 teams who play everyone twice would be my ideal afl comp, will never happen though.
    Only way it could ever happen is if they expanded to a 24 team competition with either 2 conferences (yuck) or a promotion/relegation system. Neither are happening for a long, long time if ever, but I could see a viable promotion/relegation system.

    With a draft (and therefore the top 12 picks every year going to Div 2), there'd be pretty decent cycling between Div 1 and Div 2 so clubs wouldn't disappear off the face of the earth. If it was controlled properly (i.e. games scheduled so that Div 2 had a lot of primetime as well), I don't think it'd kill off any clubs. It'd just be a case of a bigger AFL season except you don't play some teams in a given year.
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    Re: The state of the game

    Its been going downhill quickly now for the last 3-4 years. The worst part is McLachlan was put in his position for nothing to change. Its all about $$$$$ in this corporate, materialistic world we live in.

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    FFC Football Operations Manager Nothing's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    I don't mind conferences and think that with the right split it can work, even to the AFLs preferences.

    Northern conference - NSW and QLD teams plus 5 teams from VIC, being the teams that finished (from VIC) 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th.
    Western conference - WA and SA teams plus remaining 5 VIC teams.

    Play each team from your conference twice and the other conference once. 25 round season. Top 4 from each then rank those 8 on total win loss to get the ladder.

    OR 3 conferences with the Vic teams changing to satisfy the AFLs whims each year. They could even rig a live draw and sell the rights to Channel 7.
    NSW and QLD + 2 teams from Vic
    WA teams + 4 teams from Vic
    SA teams + 4 teams from Vic

    22 round season but some logic and benefit between the teams you play twice. Top 2 from each then next 2 best teams (wildcards). All go into the current top 8 based on overall W/L.

    Both significantly favour the non-footy states and the draw can be manipulated to ensure sufficient Vic representation. They still can have their bloke busters to their hearts content. Less travel from the non-Vic teams.

    I think the only way to bring any amount of 'fairness' into fixturing is to go to conferences and think that we will eventually end up there.

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    Re: The state of the game

    The "Americanisation" of sport is such a depressing march. The continued emails I get from Essendon asking for my thoughts on my "matchday experience" are driving me up the wall. My "matchday experience" is 80 minutes of footy plus time on. If we win, I enjoy it. If we lose, I don't. I don't give a shit if a failed actor in a mosquito suit dances to some song I know I hate, but I don't know.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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  10. #24
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    Re: The state of the game

    the game has been broken for 30 years, and it will be broken for the next 300.
    its not broken

    I'd like to see interchange cap removed, no substitutes.

    I'd also like to see in season trading, and a massive expansion of free agency. the solution to the best teams winning at FA, is more FA not less. there is no liquidity in the market, so there isn't enough to go round
    TEX WALKER. that is all.

  11. #25
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    Re: The state of the game

    Plenty wrong with umpiring and the rules side of the game but I honestly can't remember a time period where people weren't complaining about that sort of thing. I think the biggest problem is simply the distribution of talent. There is just not enough good players for 18 teams, in the AFL's lust to try and counter the growing threat of soccer by expanding they overlooked the simple fact there simply isn't the depth to allow for it, so many players running around on weekends now who previously just wouldn't have got a game. This leaves us with so many games a week between inferior sides drastically short on talent. For a league that takes it's cues from American sport, they probably should consider the fact that most their major leagues have around 30 teams for a population that is 13 times larger than ours.

    Obviously the rules side of the game does play some part in the growing disillusionment with the state of the game. I will say though that the inconsistency, nay mystery, of what constitutes holding the ball does do my head in and this diving in rule is a complete joke. They only needed to stop players sliding in feet first, now we have players being punished for attacking the ball harder than their opponents and getting their first. It really has become, as the great Dwayno would put it, "the second mouse gets the cheese" which is contrary to a core philosophy of the games very foundation.
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  12. #26
    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewy_GFC View Post
    Plenty wrong with umpiring and the rules side of the game but I honestly can't remember a time period where people weren't complaining about that sort of thing. I think the biggest problem is simply the distribution of talent. There is just not enough good players for 18 teams, in the AFL's lust to try and counter the growing threat of soccer by expanding they overlooked the simple fact there simply isn't the depth to allow for it, so many players running around on weekends now who previously just wouldn't have got a game. This leaves us with so many games a week between inferior sides drastically short on talent. For a league that takes it's cues from American sport, they probably should consider the fact that most their major leagues have around 30 teams for a population that is 13 times larger than ours.

    Obviously the rules side of the game does play some part in the growing disillusionment with the state of the game. I will say though that the inconsistency, nay mystery, of what constitutes holding the ball does do my head in and this diving in rule is a complete joke. They only needed to stop players sliding in feet first, now we have players being punished for attacking the ball harder than their opponents and getting their first. It really has become, as the great Dwayno would put it, "the second mouse gets the cheese" which is contrary to a core philosophy of the games very foundation.
    This is a perfect example of what happens when the AFL feels a need to fake protect players. One player got injured and the AFL overreacted to it and changed the fabric of the game.

    It's just a small example of the general philosophy that the AFL HQ has towards the game. Everything is reactionary and rushed, I can't think of another sport where you have 2 or 3 rule changes mid season on average over a 5 year period like the AFL has, nevermind the 5 or 6 changes in each offseason.

    The little bit of footy I watched on the weekend seemed worse than ever, I literally fell asleep during the Dockers game yesterday and turned off the Tigers/Hawks, Port/Saints and Lions/Cats games this weekend and went to the driving range instead. Basically the Eagles game was the only game I watched to the end and that was only because I was watching it with two Eagles fans mates who wouldn't let me turn it off...

    I don't entirely agree with the overextension thing, sure it doesn't help, but there have always been terrible teams. The Dockers were a joke for 10 years, Fitzroy were worse than anything right now for the first few years I watched, Melbourne have been terrible for a decade, Sydney were terrible when I started following them, Hawthorn almost merged with Melbourne they were that bad on and off field, Carlton were terrible for a decade, St Kilda were awful for half a decade, Geelong were pretty ordinary for a 5 year period. Really Adelaide and Essendon are the only two sides I can't remember being awful at some point and they've both had some lean patches still.

    I just think the product isn't as fun as it used to be. We've all but removed the big marks, we've removed the big tackles and big bumps, scoring is way down and we've removed a lot of the spectacular shots at goal because they're selfish. The coaches have played their part in removing the fun, the professionalisation of the sport has shaped it so that certain things are just far less likely but the result is we've removed the risk and as a result most of the reward with it.

    The way the AFL has decided to compete with soccer is by trying to offer the same product instead of trying to offer a different product. I actually think AFL has gotten to the point where it almost needs its Super League, World Series of Cricket, ABA or similar that splinters the fan base and makes the AFL realise that they've pushed out their fan base in the chase of a different fan base that have already got their non-contact aerobic ball chasing contest fix sorted. The AFL needs to stop trying to be soccer, it's not even a direct competitor because the top leagues don't even play during 90% of the AFL season.

    I'm not sure how you fix a lot of the issues, the player heath/safety thing is a real issue that has probably taken more fun than anything else away but it isn't exactly something you can ignore any more. The coaching is always going to hard to fix, they're paid to win not to entertain and unfortunately the way the rules have been designed has pushed them to favour a boring and predictable style because it works better and I don't see any way to really fix that (the 9 point goal might be something to really consider along with some other changes to encourage long kicking and pack marking. I think the deliberate rule (both points and boundary) needs to become much harsher to stop the defensive utilisation, fixing the ball rule I've already covered, fixing the manning of the mark would sure help as well but even all those things aren't going to fix some of the problems. I don't know how to reward pack marking but for starters I'd love to see the "unrealistic attempt" rule wound back massively to encourage flying, maybe reward a pack mark with a 10m advance or something (totally winging this!). I think tighter enforcement of holding is also something to go for both at stoppages and on leads/marking contests is also a must (this both stops taggers and allows quicker ball movement and transition.
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  14. #27
    Super Moderator dylan123's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Didn't watch Sydney training on Saturday afternoon wogi? They were looking in pretty good shape but who doesn't against witches hats? Tippett in the ruck worked well, be interesting to see whether they can talk him into remaining in that position come match day given he never enjoyed rucking when at Adelaide I believe.

  15. #28
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by dylan123 View Post
    Didn't watch Sydney training on Saturday afternoon wogi? They were looking in pretty good shape but who doesn't against witches hats? Tippett in the ruck worked well, be interesting to see whether they can talk him into remaining in that position come match day given he never enjoyed rucking when at Adelaide I believe.
    Didn't watch a minute... playing golf instead, more enjoyment in my absolutely terrible golf than the Swans right now! Nice to hear it was the opponent who didn't show up for once at least...

    Tippett has been rucking a lot all season, it's been by far his best position as well because he has looked like his shoes are filled with cement otherwise. I think we need to do it, our forward line has been better with Goodes, Reid and Franklin instead of Tippett for the most part and we're way to tall with Pyke and Tippett right now, especially noticeable without Rohan and McGlynn who I saw was hurt again because our pressure becomes non-existent. Basically Goodes either wins the contest or falls over looking for a free these days so he isn't putting pressure on consistently, Tippett wouldn't chase if his life depended on it, Reid is like a worst of both worlds with those two, either falls over (not even playing for a free, he just falls) or doesn't chase and even when he does he is one of the worst tacklers I've ever seen so he just misses the tackle anyway. It's why Rohan and McGlynn have become so important down there this year. Buddy at least chases but even Kennedy and Parker are pretty poor in this area when resting (KJack is great and Mitchell is in the Tippett class unfortunately). Heeney the other key but he is still working out where to run for the most part before worrying about the defensive stuff.

    The saddest part was that I didn't even check the score out on the course, that's how little I cared!
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  16. #29
    FFC Senior Assistant Coach Drewy_GFC's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    This is a perfect example of what happens when the AFL feels a need to fake protect players. One player got injured and the AFL overreacted to it and changed the fabric of the game.

    It's just a small example of the general philosophy that the AFL HQ has towards the game. Everything is reactionary and rushed, I can't think of another sport where you have 2 or 3 rule changes mid season on average over a 5 year period like the AFL has, nevermind the 5 or 6 changes in each offseason.

    The little bit of footy I watched on the weekend seemed worse than ever, I literally fell asleep during the Dockers game yesterday and turned off the Tigers/Hawks, Port/Saints and Lions/Cats games this weekend and went to the driving range instead. Basically the Eagles game was the only game I watched to the end and that was only because I was watching it with two Eagles fans mates who wouldn't let me turn it off...

    I don't entirely agree with the overextension thing, sure it doesn't help, but there have always been terrible teams. The Dockers were a joke for 10 years, Fitzroy were worse than anything right now for the first few years I watched, Melbourne have been terrible for a decade, Sydney were terrible when I started following them, Hawthorn almost merged with Melbourne they were that bad on and off field, Carlton were terrible for a decade, St Kilda were awful for half a decade, Geelong were pretty ordinary for a 5 year period. Really Adelaide and Essendon are the only two sides I can't remember being awful at some point and they've both had some lean patches still.

    I just think the product isn't as fun as it used to be. We've all but removed the big marks, we've removed the big tackles and big bumps, scoring is way down and we've removed a lot of the spectacular shots at goal because they're selfish. The coaches have played their part in removing the fun, the professionalisation of the sport has shaped it so that certain things are just far less likely but the result is we've removed the risk and as a result most of the reward with it.

    The way the AFL has decided to compete with soccer is by trying to offer the same product instead of trying to offer a different product. I actually think AFL has gotten to the point where it almost needs its Super League, World Series of Cricket, ABA or similar that splinters the fan base and makes the AFL realise that they've pushed out their fan base in the chase of a different fan base that have already got their non-contact aerobic ball chasing contest fix sorted. The AFL needs to stop trying to be soccer, it's not even a direct competitor because the top leagues don't even play during 90% of the AFL season.

    I'm not sure how you fix a lot of the issues, the player heath/safety thing is a real issue that has probably taken more fun than anything else away but it isn't exactly something you can ignore any more. The coaching is always going to hard to fix, they're paid to win not to entertain and unfortunately the way the rules have been designed has pushed them to favour a boring and predictable style because it works better and I don't see any way to really fix that (the 9 point goal might be something to really consider along with some other changes to encourage long kicking and pack marking. I think the deliberate rule (both points and boundary) needs to become much harsher to stop the defensive utilisation, fixing the ball rule I've already covered, fixing the manning of the mark would sure help as well but even all those things aren't going to fix some of the problems. I don't know how to reward pack marking but for starters I'd love to see the "unrealistic attempt" rule wound back massively to encourage flying, maybe reward a pack mark with a 10m advance or something (totally winging this!). I think tighter enforcement of holding is also something to go for both at stoppages and on leads/marking contests is also a must (this both stops taggers and allows quicker ball movement and transition.
    There has always been terrible teams yes, but now we have more of them by adding 2 new teams, because it's not just creating 2 more bad sides, it's dragging a host of other sides down by ensuring a larger spread of C graders across the competition with inferior skills.

    I'm not too sure how you solve the aesthetic crisis, adding in more rules has really only detracted from the game and as you say the utterly reactionary attitude of the AFL has been a complete joke and served only to make things worse. I honestly think the best hope is just positive coaches like Beveridge/Richardson having success in the future, the style of successful football is constantly shifting, whilst it seems negative tactics are the way at the moment, no style lasts for too long before it is eventually surpassed by a new trend. How to encourage coaches to take that risk and adopt a more positive mindset whilst not tinkering with the rules too much is such a difficult balance to strike and i'm at a loss as to how you achieve it without fundamentally changing the game; which is something I assume most people would rather not see happen.
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  17. #30
    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewy_GFC View Post
    There has always been terrible teams yes, but now we have more of them by adding 2 new teams, because it's not just creating 2 more bad sides, it's dragging a host of other sides down by ensuring a larger spread of C graders across the competition with inferior skills.
    Yeah I think if you took the talents from the expansion and threw them to other sides things would be better but I don't think it's going to really change the game or the bad sides. A team like Melbourne still had plenty of top picks and made a mess, ditto Carlton or Brisbane. Heck the two sides we thought should be most hurt by the expansion drafts was the Dogs and Saints and they've both bounced back quickly and passed the poorly run sides already. I mean every side gets better for sure but does the overall standard really improve or even the gap between good and bad? Agree it has hurt but I don't think the talent base is that diluted, I think free agency has done a far worse job than expansion in this regard because it has filtered B+ talents from the bad sides to the best sides. So Frawley compared to Spangher isn't a huge change at Hawthorn but Frawley compared to having to play Dunn and Garland as KPD makes a pretty big difference at Melbourne.


    I'm not too sure how you solve the aesthetic crisis, adding in more rules has really only detracted from the game and as you say the utterly reactionary attitude of the AFL has been a complete joke and served only to make things worse. I honestly think the best hope is just positive coaches like Beveridge/Richardson having success in the future, the style of successful football is constantly shifting, whilst it seems negative tactics are the way at the moment, no style lasts for too long before it is eventually surpassed by a new trend. How to encourage coaches to take that risk and adopt a more positive mindset whilst not tinkering with the rules too much is such a difficult balance to strike and i'm at a loss as to how you achieve it without fundamentally changing the game; which is something I assume most people would rather not see happen.
    I think the problem is that finding the fix to those attacking sides is far easier than finding new ways to create gimmick scoring. Look at Port this year, teams have worked out how to take away what they want and without the defensive foundation they're pretty lost. The problem is AFL is absolutely in the "Defense wins championships" sports. It's easier to build strong defensive structures that can survive injuries and form slumps or talent drop offs and as such coaches are much better off to go down that path. Look at Richmond now, they've finally worked it out (it seems?) and now they're getting the results on a pretty defensive approach.

    I don't necessarily want to remove that for what it's worth, I still think the best GFs I've seen were the Eagles/Swans ones despite both sides being very defensive and perfectly happy with 10 goals because of how they were played and the physical intensity. I think the trick is that we need to let the game develop on its own without so much fiddling and attempted steering towards particular ideals. It's the consequences of the forced changes to try and create excitement that are the source of most of the problems right now. The obsession with continuity in the game has predictably created a rolling maul around the ball for example as teams are punished for allowing space and free ball movement to the opposition.

    What we need is to help bring back the elements that make the game great. Guys like Kouta and Judd bursting from packs, Matera and McLeod gliding down a wing, pack marking at both ends, fierce tackling that is rewarded, ruck contests that aren't finicky netball contests (asking the biggest guys on the field to be the biggest fairies is just stupid). Right now a guy like Dangerfield has to first break free of a holding tag (because no one is allowed to block properly and because the umpires aren't calling holds) and then try and break out of a 20 man cluster**** if he wants to break from the pack. Those swarms happen because we aren't rewarding tackles and we are so slow with stoppages that by the time the umpire finally is forced to accept a stoppage all the flankers have gravitated towards the ball because it is the easiest defensive zone area. Something as simple as just paying ball or blowing a quick whistle instead of making people fish out water flop for 5 minutes before having a ball up and just getting on with it, they do it if a melee is happening, they should treat every ball up with the same haste, don't wait for everyone to get there, you blow the whistle quickly, get the ball and throw it up, should take about 2 seconds, the result is flankers are going to either stay back or get stuck in no mans land, stay back is what you want but no mans land at least opens things up behind them.
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