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Thread: The state of the game

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    FFC General Manager Devo's Avatar
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    The state of the game

    There's been a bit of discussion about the state of the game recently, probably because there's been a few ugly low-scoring games and late July is traditionally a slow time in the AFL media industry and the hacks need something to write about.

    There seems to be two main schools of thought:

    1) the game is broken and it needs radical change to survive e.g. introduce netball-like zones, reduce the number of players on ground, lower the interchange cap, call play on if a backward kick is marked, etc etc etc.

    2) the game is fine, just leave it alone.

    Which camp are you in? If you want change, what needs to happen in order to improve the product and safeguard the future of footy? Is big-bang change needed or will some subtle tweaks here and there do the job? If you want to leave the game alone and let it evolve, what gives you comfort that everything will be fine?

    I have my own thoughts on this but I'd like to hear what others have to say first.
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Devo View Post
    Which camp are you in?
    The one David King isn't in.







    On topic, the on-field stuff is the least of my worries. Until the structure of the AFL is completely changed (their governance is very poor, whodathunk it?) there's no point making changes because I don't trust the people who have been self-appointed to make changes.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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    Re: The state of the game

    Leave it the same but adjudicate the rules properly.

    If umps started paying Holding the Ball quicker and Incorrect disposal instead of letting players just drop it on the ground and everyone jumping on it there would be a lot less congestion. (Not blaming umps for this its the people who instruct them and how to umpire the game).

    I remember many years ago there was a push to keep the game moving with out so many stoppages so they relaxed some of these rules and started letting players have longer to get rid of the ball or just dropping to keep play rolling. This did get the game moving a bit more but now teams have brought in tactics to take advantage of this slight interpretation change.

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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Devo View Post
    There's been a bit of discussion about the state of the game recently, probably because there's been a few ugly low-scoring games and late July is traditionally a slow time in the AFL media industry and the hacks need something to write about.

    There seems to be two main schools of thought:

    1) the game is broken and it needs radical change to survive e.g. introduce netball-like zones, reduce the number of players on ground, lower the interchange cap, call play on if a backward kick is marked, etc etc etc.

    2) the game is fine, just leave it alone.

    Which camp are you in? If you want change, what needs to happen in order to improve the product and safeguard the future of footy? Is big-bang change needed or will some subtle tweaks here and there do the job? If you want to leave the game alone and let it evolve, what gives you comfort that everything will be fine?

    I have my own thoughts on this but I'd like to hear what others have to say first.
    I think the game is broken in an entirely different way and think all of those solutions are just awful.

    I actually watched the Crows vs Power game on the weekend and I thought it was a terrible game, the commentators were lauding it as some great display where as I saw two teams playing no defense, tackling like children and generally letting either side do what it wanted despite some pretty awful disposal.

    Having said that I'm thoroughly from the old school at this point, I'd rather see a physical contest, for mine goals and points mean next to nothing, honestly a game could have two goals and I wouldn't care, the skill of putting the ball between two sticks is just a minor element of the overall spectacle, it's like the candles in a cake for me, sure they add a bit (especially if they're really good!) but I could totally watch a game without them. I'd rather see fierce physical contests, fatigued players making vital decisions, overall skill execution, skilled marks and tactical nous at play that some guy execute one of the more basic skills in the game.

    As such, my problem with the game is the "pussification" for lack of a better term, the removal of many of the elements that I enjoy most and the AFL's general meddling with and around the game.

    If I had my way these are the things that I would fix and what I think would result from this happening.

    1. Holding the Ball - This is certainly my biggest hate right now. It needs to be fixed, the AFL's obsession with a "continuous flow" has created this problem, for me this rule should be very simple, maybe 1 in 20 tackles should involve any contention as to the decision instead of the current scenario where it is more like 19 out of 20. The fix is exceedingly simple as well, they got this rule right for the first 10 or so years that I watched football and it wasn't until the Swans started succeeding on a gameplan based around stoppages (low scores were the problem for the AFL, find someone who didn't enjoy those grand finals between Sydney/WC as a spectacle) that the AFL just lost the plot and changed the rule to the point of being just unrecognisable.

    Holding the ball should be a simple 3 step process for an umpire. Step 1: Did prior opportunity exist? This needn't be hard to establish, if the player makes a football related move (raises arms, fends off, starts to run, ducks, leaves his feet, etc) then they had prior opportunity. So we have prior established, we can only have a few outcomes from there. If a player had prior opportunity he either disposed of the ball legally by handball or kick (the only legal forms of disposal, if the ball leaves their possession in any other way then it was not legal, protect the ball), if he disposed legally, play on, if he did not, holding the ball. Simple. If he had no prior then again we have only a couple of outcomes. Did he dispose of the ball legally? If yes, then play on, if no then it's illegal disposal. If he did not dispose, then it's ball up.

    That's it. Player with ball has to protect the ball to remove the whole "knocked out in the tackle" bullshit and grey area. You remove the stupid wobbling on the ground like a fish out of water. You greatly reduce the clutter around stoppages because players aren't just throwing it on the ground and forming a maul around it. You reward good tackles. You don't punish ball players for going for the ball. You don't have any interpretations on "he did a 360" or any of that crap, it's no grey area outside of prior which is still a lot clearer. The umpire literally only has to decide whether they had prior and whether they kicked/handball/other the ball. There will always be errors but this makes it a lot clearer.

    The best part about this? It will also remove the congestion much more effectively than letting everyone drop the ball and clutter around it. What happens when you pay a free kick? Everyone spreads from the contest straight away, that's what. The current AFL system just creates more stoppages and less clear disposal, begetting more stoppages and cluttered disposal. Not rocket science, you force players to throw the ball on the ground and flop like beached whales and it's going to end up looking like a stupid cluttered mess.

    2. Match Review Panel - Get rid of it. Plain and simple. Who loses because Selwood didn't play last week or Richards isn't playing this week? The fans, that's who. There have been about 3 incidents that warranted a suspension in the last 10 years. If someone does something like Barry Hall, you call the tribunal and you assess it based on that. We have 50m penalties and all other rules to cover things like Richards' high bump or Selwood's crude tackle. Let the players have some niggle, if they slip high, free kick. The fans enjoy it, the players enjoy it and a bit of wrestling is no more dangerous than trying to juke someone as far as injury (probably less given you're really just tiring yourself out. Again, let the umpires control things here. MRP can assess fines for the truly bad (think Hodge) and let it go to a charity of some kind (perhaps a neuro study one just for brownie points).

    Honestly, suspensions are just stupid and awful, we've all but removed the thug act to the point where Sam Mitchell raising his knee to protect from a bump (a pretty natural defensive move) is being called a dirty thug act in the media. The MRP/Tribunal has served its purpose and is just not needed.

    This also goes hand in hand with placing a duty of care on players to protect themselves again instead of the AFL encouraging and rewarding recklessness and then trying to punish other players who happen to get in the way. It's your job to keep your arms free in a tackle, it's your job to not run into a guy unless you are prepared, it's your job to keep you head on a swivel and know what is around you. Be self aware and defend yourself first and foremost on the field.

    3. Free Agency - The AFL thought this one through terribly. If you restrict who can be free agents like they have then you're going to create issues. I've been saying it since before the introduced it, if you restrict the market to senior players who've already made their money and are seeking success and post career opportunities primarily then you are killing free agency as any kind of equality mechanism and instead turning it to a top up mechanism for the strong. It needs to involve pretty much everyone after year 3 or not exist at all. Right now it's about as broken as you could do (I say this knowing that when my side is allowed in again we will be one of the benefactors).

    4. Substitute Vest - GTFO of the game. This is one of the worst things they've done, ever. It stunts player development, it does nothing. This should be a simple decision and fix. It's terrible.

    5. Interchange cap - I don't mind this one really but I also don't see the point and really all you are doing is restricting types that can play the game effectively and increasing injury chances by artificially fatiguing players. The AFL just needed something to blame for the game getting congested other than their own awful rule and interpretation changes so they picked this arbitrarily out of a hat and went with it. The reason the game was how it is and the reason that the interchange cap hasn't changed it at all is because the problem was always the AFL's insistence on removing HTB and "creating flow" like that's what people wanted.

    6. Punishing Strength in the Contest - This goes for marking and ruck contests, the AFL has adopted a policy where getting beaten for strength means fall over and win a free kick. If Mumford is stronger than Pyke and pushes him out of a contest then it shouldn't be a free kick because Pyke falls over. As long as it isn't high contact, in the back or too early (marking contest) then you should be allowed to push, shove, bump and do whatever you want. Being stronger should not be a free kick against, it should be the aim, the reward for personal betterment and all that. I hate watching Cloke win a contest fairly and remove his opponent with a well timed shove only to get a free against for being stronger. This goes for working your man under the ball and every other type of contest as well. I hate it.

    7. Diving/Simulation - Just stomp it out. Fines need to be heavy. Free kicks paid freely, I don't even care if you get some wrong, if you think a player staged at all pay it against them, rather players stop staging completely than playing for frees. This includes exaggerating contact and falling from nothing (this plays largely with the above though as well). Be a man out there.

    8. Blocking taggers/3rd man ups - This also plays with point 6, if you don't hit them high, in the back or otherwise illegally (so within 5m) then any force of off the ball block should be legal (this also plays with the whole protecting yourself thing of being aware of what's happening, if Bernie Vince wants to wear the same jumper as Dangerfield, he should expect Scott Thompson to try and forcibly remove him from it). Particularly relevant with the whole 3rd man up fiasco right now, a team should be allowed to protect their ruckman and the contest, not penalised for it. If you want to launch 3rd man up you should reasonably expect someone to attempt to block you with force, you know contact sport and all that.

    9. Scheduling - I know I'm in the minority here (I'm sure it's because I'm used to the US sports) but what is the point of having 2 games on Saturday afternoon and 2 games on Saturday night? Have a game on Monday and Thursday (If you build it people will come eventually), you telling me playing Melbourne vs Freo on a Saturday afternoon at the G is going to get significantly more than Monday night for example?. We have two games that you can't watch because they clash and we have two nights where there is a lack of football. The NFL works brilliantly with the Thursday, Sunday and Monday combo (Saturday is college football but if it wasn't the NFL would play it also and does after college season ends). As someone who wants to watch as many games as possible this is a boon.

    10. Going back with the flight/taking your eyes off the ball - This is just rubbish. We should be encouraging the fearless going back with the flight, there is nothing that says you need to watch the ball (once again getting back to the whole "protect yourself" thing) and if you legally spoil you should be able to make contact just as you would coming in the other direction. This is a real pet peeve, for mine it should be exactly the same as going for a speccy. If you spoil the ball then it's a reasonable spoil attempt whether you were wearing a blindfold, walking on your hands or staring at the ball like it was the return of Jesus, nothing else matters to me. If you haven't made high contact outside the norms of a marking contest (most hangers require high contact technically) and you didn't hold or push in the back then why does it matter where you were looking?

    That will probably do for now, I'm sure others will mention plenty of other items that I've left off. The first couple are the worst, imo, and really they're the ones that create nearly all the others anyway.
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    Super Moderator dylan123's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    I find myself watching very few neutral games these days, just find it boring to watch.

    I don't really mind defensive contests but there are a lot of poor skills, one sided games (well some teams just look a lot shitter) and the way they've taken the contact out of the sport doesn't sit well with me at all.

    I hate the netball idea of introducing zones, the game will evolve, I'm waiting for the moment where a coach just tells the full forward to stay in the forward 50 all the time (unless presenting). Just watch what happens on the rebound as you either get your key forward free in the forward 50 or a 1v1 contest which is a full forwards dream. Once that happens and the opposition start to leave forwards forward, it will swing back - I think teams can afford to have 1-2 guys out of the contest and in a position without it hurting the team.


    Different note but I watched Hawthorn Sydney last week expecting a good game and it was extremely disappointing, I was done with it by half time and didn't watch another match outside of the Adelaide v Port game.

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    Re: The state of the game

    Epic post Wog. The only thing I don't really agree with you on is Monday night games. I hate it. All for Thursday night games though. I wouldn't mind a back to back to back to back format on a Saturday tbh.

    Everything else you posted are similar thoughts to what I have.

    Where the worrying thing for me is the fact that there are really only 2-3 challengers every year. I'm not going to go back in history to see if this is the case all along but from memory Adelaide won the flag from 5th position. There is absolutely no way that would happen in the modern game. Where does this stem from? Probably the AFL trying to expand too early and spreading the talent pool. I understand why they did it though, it squeezes more cash from broadcasters as there are more games to show each week. To the detriment of the game overall, however.
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    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    I think list sizes contribute massively to the talent pool issue Narkee. Too many kids are let go quite early in their career because there's not enough room for them. Three year draftee contracts with an unlimited list size would be ideal, it allows more of the fringe kids time to develop. If a top team wants to have a smaller list so they can pay more older blokes for a flag push, it should be their prerogative. If a team like St Kilda wants to have 50 on the list so they can get some time with a lot of younger guys, that should be their prerogative as well. Scrap the rookie list, hard salary cap, none of the bullshit "carryover credit" for paying under the maximum and let clubs have the time to develop kids if they so choose.
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    Re: The state of the game

    Also worth noting from a fantasy perspective the increased stoppages has benefited the tacklers and the good ruckmen (HOTA). Look at the difference between the GAJ who can tackle now v the one who couldn't early in the season. The midfielders who historically didn't score big due to lack of possession or reliance on HBs have now become viable options. Priddis is a pretty good example of this (currently ranked number 1 for total tackles). SC 2013 - 101.0, 2014 - 112.7, 2015 - 114.3.

    If I had more time on my hands I'd look into it further but I'm pretty sure I saw a stat on the number of stoppages per game increasing by over 10% in the last year or two. I'd assume the tackle numbers have gone up by a similar percentage and handballing is increasing.
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    Re: The state of the game

    Thank you for your thoughts, men. Shout to @Wogitalia for his excellent HTB thoughts, they echo my own thoughts exactly.

    FWIW, my thoughts are:

    I agree with @Elvs1 that the umpires should officiate the rules that we have, rather than be told to interpret them in a particular way each season or have a 'rule of the week'. If a free is there according to the rules that we have, you whistle it. If it's not, then play on. I've said it before, but the umpiring on grand final day is the standard we should expect all year long, there is no need for variation week to week on how the game is officiated. I'm happy for the umps to blow the whistle more if tempers are fraying and an all-in brawl is in prospect, but that happens so infrequently now that's not even a genuine consideration.

    One issue that doesn't get much attention is how the man on the mark can now fan out along an invisible line running left to right while guarding the mark, instead of staying rooted to the spot where the mark was taken. This doesn't encourage players to run and carry the footy and take the game on, which is a great part of the game and makes it attractive for the fans. Keeping the man on the mark actually on the mark would probably free up the game more than people would realise.

    It also comes back to what motivates coaches. Coaches aren't paid to make the game beautiful to watch, they are paid to win more games than they lose and to make the finals/win premierships, either now or soon. They will do whatever they can to control the chaos of Australian rules footy and bring all of the different variables to heel. Compressing the size of the ground, limiting opponent's time and space, forcing opponents towards the boundary line and away from dangerous spots, chipping backwards and sideways to control the tempo are all part of minimising risk and decreasing the possibility of losing (and negative media coverage). The consequences of high-risk moves are magnified in today's media landscape, so where is the incentive to make them? We can hope that all coaches will be like Bevo and seek to attack a lot, but that would be asking too much.

    Coaches will do what the rules of the game incentivise them to do to scrape whatever advantage they can. If we are to implement any of the suggestions that have been made to 'fix' the game, then giving a bonus premiership point for scoring over 100 points in a game is one has a bit of appeal. That might set the incentives for coaches towards attacking footy and accentuate the positive things about the game that we all want to see more of. Teams will still need to defend well, be physical, put pressure on, tackle hard, etc, but they will also have to kick well, work hard for each other, hit their set shots and take risks. Hopefully that would open up the game without fundamentally altering what the game is about. That one extra point might be the difference at the end of the year between getting a double chance or not, a home final or not, or making the finals or not. There are other problems that come with this e.g. teams with soft draws through the current fixturing would be highly advantaged, and teams might shut up their offensive shop in round 23 to avoid a particular match-up or to get secure their draft position.
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    Re: The state of the game

    I thought last round was one of the most poorly officiated rounds I have ever seen. Umpires should be almost invisible yet, in our game, they are almost the centre piece.
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    Re: The state of the game

    The manning the mark is a great one @Devo and would make the job easier instead of getting what are often random 50s when an umpire feels like it (Sydney got one on Gaff on the weekend that I was baffled by).

    Actually heard a commentator ask "is that even a rule" on the weekend and no one knew (pretty sure it was for a forceful tackle or something).

    That's the thing, the umpires are now basically making things up because of interpretation on interpretation instead of because the rules.

    It's not he umpires fault at all, they actually do an outstanding job of trying to umpire to the cluster**** of interpretations they're given. I mean during the Essendon game they were explaining that apparently the interpretation in a ruck contest is that a stiff arm is an illegal move and should be a free kick against... this is according to the umpiring directives (I have no idea if it's actually a rule but it seems so inherently against the spirit of the game that I'd be shocked if it was).

    All I know is that football is not fun to watch anymore, even as someone who admires the tactical side, we've removed the guts of the game, the toughness (it's still tough just in a running a marathon way not in a gladiator way), we've taken away the soul of what makes football our game instead of just a bastardised version of soccer (which is what it has basically come). I watched the Port and Essendon game and admittedly wasn't expecting much but it was an awful game to watch, I've seen training sessions with more defensive effort than those two put it, what scares me is I reckon it's how the AFL want the game to be.
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    FFC General Manager Bert1's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    I'll probably just go about my business & keep watching, particularly Collingwood games because that's just what I am programmed to do & have done my whole life. There has been a steady decline in the product over the years as the more the outside influence increases, the more the quality decreases. But to be honest, I'm now past the point of even mustering up the energy to really complain about it anymore. It's not going to achieve anything. Just so much wrong with the game across the entire board.


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    Re: The state of the game

    Big call on it being worse than the Fast & the Furious. I tried to watch number 5 or 6 about a year ago, I lasted 10-15min before I couldn't take anymore of it

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    Re: The state of the game

    I'm with Bert.

    I love footy, like love to watch 9 games.

    I've really struggled this year. I've found the umpiring below standard, I feel like the game is the contested that the umps don't really see what is really happening.

    I'm really over the poor skills as well. Players are so programmed that they forget to actually play footy. It's turned so defensive which I also hate, games like the collingwood wce was a prime example of how footy shouldn't be played. Two decent sides going head to head and both teams played two spare. I too am not really interested in zones, although I wouldn't be against 4 blokes not allowed over half way. It would certainly open the game up meaning at least 8 blokes wouldn't be around the ball.

    I really hate what the over coaching has done for the game, but like Bert you just have to shake your head.

    I PREFER to watch a collingwood VFL game than an AFL, the skills aren't as great but the defensive structures aren't there and you actually see pure footy.
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    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bert1 View Post
    I'll probably just go about my business & keep watching, particularly Collingwood games because that's just what I am programmed to do & have done my whole life. There has been a steady decline in the product over the years as the more the outside influence increases, the more the quality decreases. But to be honest, I'm now past the point of even mustering up the energy to really complain about it anymore. It's not going to achieve anything. Just so much wrong with the game across the entire board.


    Worse than the Fast & the Furious series. 2/10
    I've watched about 4 games in the last month and I can't say I've missed it which is a real pity. I'm genuinely tempted to pretty much not watch next year.
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