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Thread: Essendon verdict

  1. #16
    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Insufficient evidence is by definition not guilty. You cannot prove innocence, only a lack of guilt.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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  3. #17
    FFC Agent of Chaos Big Sledge #32's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben the Gooner View Post
    Insufficient evidence is by definition not guilty. You cannot prove innocence, only a lack of guilt.
    I'm aware of that.

    I'm not entirely sure that the greater football masses are though.
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    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sledge #32 View Post
    I'm aware of that.

    I'm not entirely sure that the greater football masses are though.
    It doesn't help that the journos who lack the brain cells to make the distinction are already carrying on like "insufficient evidence" is some sort of loophole.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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    FFC Agent of Chaos Big Sledge #32's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben the Gooner View Post
    It doesn't help that the journos who lack the brain cells to make the distinction are already carrying on like "insufficient evidence" is some sort of loophole.
    None of that surprises me. I've already seen Tweets about giving Jobe's Brownlow to the Essendon paper shredder and I decided that's enough social media for one day.
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    There was never a case against the players as the club didn't document what each player had and no players tested positive. So unless they admitted guilt (which wouldnt happen, as they are more than likely not sure themselves) not guilty was the only verdict here
    - twitter @mammes

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    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben the Gooner View Post
    Insufficient evidence is by definition not guilty. You cannot prove innocence, only a lack of guilt.
    From a legal perspective this is absolutely correct.

    In reality though you can prove innocence and Essendon never even tried and at the end of the day that will always hang over them. As OJ Simpson exemplifies, not guilty is not the same thing as innocent.


    As for the NFL... Goodell is an asshat of the level that even Vlad couldn't hope to reach, it's been great watching everyone turn on him. Outside of him though the NFL is vastly more professional than the AFL but in fairness that's like comparing Woolworths to your local corner store.
    The Truck is driving the Fish Shack in 2018... Christian Petracca is my boy!

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    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    PS. To be clear, I think it's the correct finding from what we know, there wasn't sufficient evidence that has ever come to light and not guilty is correct given that but that doesn't really change the perception of what happened from what we know either.

    Hopefully this is the end of it all though because I'm sick of it!
    The Truck is driving the Fish Shack in 2018... Christian Petracca is my boy!

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  10. #23
    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    From a legal perspective this is absolutely correct.

    In reality though you can prove innocence and Essendon never even tried and at the end of the day that will always hang over them. As OJ Simpson exemplifies, not guilty is not the same thing as innocent.


    As for the NFL... Goodell is an asshat of the level that even Vlad couldn't hope to reach, it's been great watching everyone turn on him. Outside of him though the NFL is vastly more professional than the AFL but in fairness that's like comparing Woolworths to your local corner store.
    How do you prove it beyond "the admittedly poor documentation we have suggests nothing happened"? Retrospectively, sure, documentation should have been much better, but once the shit hit the fan, it becomes pretty difficult.
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    FFC Agent of Chaos Big Sledge #32's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    I'm enjoying just how much I'm agreeing with @Wogitalia this preseason.

    Makes me think that I'm set for a big year
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    But let's be honest if you are doing something shoddy your paperwork is always going to be shit, you're not going to write down when you take illegal substances!

    So the only way to prove that there are illegal drugs are two ways; a positive test or a whistle blower.
    - twitter @mammes

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  14. #26
    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben the Gooner View Post
    How do you prove it beyond "the admittedly poor documentation we have suggests nothing happened"? Retrospectively, sure, documentation should have been much better, but once the shit hit the fan, it becomes pretty difficult.
    You can't and that's the crutch of the case and the reason that they were able to be shown not guilty on a lack of evidence.

    That doesn't change the perception though, reasonable people will ask why those records were not kept and/or destroyed, why the club felt the need to do it cloaks and daggers, why they didn't document everything/anything, why they were sent off site and the other particularly smoky aspects that strongly suggest that a fire might exist. That's just the reality of what using a defense that relies on there not being evidence creates.

    NONE of that makes them guilty in a legal sense but all of it certainly clouds their innocence.
    The Truck is driving the Fish Shack in 2018... Christian Petracca is my boy!

  15. #27
    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sledge #32 View Post
    I'm enjoying just how much I'm agreeing with @Wogitalia this preseason.

    Makes me think that I'm set for a big year
    Or I'm doomed

    Time for Sledge vs wogi round 3 (or whatever it is)?
    The Truck is driving the Fish Shack in 2018... Christian Petracca is my boy!

  16. #28
    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    You can't and that's the crutch of the case and the reason that they were able to be shown not guilty on a lack of evidence.

    That doesn't change the perception though, reasonable people will ask why those records were not kept and/or destroyed, why the club felt the need to do it cloaks and daggers, why they didn't document everything/anything, why they were sent off site and the other particularly smoky aspects that strongly suggest that a fire might exist. That's just the reality of what using a defense that relies on there not being evidence creates.

    NONE of that makes them guilty in a legal sense but all of it certainly clouds their innocence.
    Perception was long gone, no doubt you're right there. Since Feb 2013 though, there's nothing evidentially that the club could have done differently. PR-wise, absolutely, but nothing to do with evidence could have been changed.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

  17. #29
    Moderator Wogitalia's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben the Gooner View Post
    Perception was long gone, no doubt you're right there. Since Feb 2013 though, there's nothing evidentially that the club could have done differently. PR-wise, absolutely, but nothing to do with evidence could have been changed.
    Yep, unfortunately the legal aspect has little to do with the perception at this point.

    Either way, fingers crossed that it's all over now! Please!

    I'll be honest, no preseason games or not, I'd rather not be playing Essendon this week...
    The Truck is driving the Fish Shack in 2018... Christian Petracca is my boy!

  18. #30
    Fort Kickass Ben the Gooner's Avatar
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    Re: Essendon verdict

    Quote Originally Posted by Wogitalia View Post
    Yep, unfortunately the legal aspect has little to do with the perception at this point.

    Either way, fingers crossed that it's all over now! Please!

    I'll be honest, no preseason games or not, I'd rather not be playing Essendon this week...
    Took $7 on crown bet this morning. Now $3.50. Still overs, see 2013 Rd 1-16.
    Never bet against Tom Rockliff

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